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In his autobiography Gandhi said, “Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is.” In this interview from the Uniting Nations podcast, Anna Ikeda of Soka Gakkai International speaks with Imam Saffet Catovic, the Director of Operations for the faith-based organization Justice for All. They talk about forefronting our shared humanity across divides like faith, nationality and stages of life — as an important component of a new consciousness of our spiritual accountability to the Earth and the rest of life.
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Saffet: Peace and greetings. I’m your brother in humanity, Saffet Catovic. I am the imam and Muslim chaplain at Drew University in Madison, New Jersey.
I also serve as the Director of the United Nations Operations for Justice For All. We are accredited to the UN as a faith-based human rights organization. We have a track record for over 30 years of working to put an end to religious persecution of religious minorities around the world. And when, unfortunately, that often develops into genocide, to put an end to the genocide that is taking place.
I also serve in various other organizations that are pursuing sustainable, peaceful, and just futures for us all. Like the Parliament of the World’s Religions, which is the oldest interfaith organization, in the world, having its origins in Chicago in 1893, at the first international convening of the Parliament of World Religions.
Wonderful to be with all of you today.
Anna: Well, thank you so much for joining us today. I’ve been personally really looking forward to speaking with you. As I’m also part of a faith community, working at the UN context. And I’m really excited to learn, from your wisdom, today.
So, to start off, why won’t you share how you started engaging in the kind of work that you do, especially at the UN? And what has been your journey like?
Saffet: My journey, I don’t think, was too unusual for certain segments within the UN community. Actually, I began not planning to do so, but began by, having to work to put an end to the genocide that was taking place in my ancestral Bosnia and Herzegovina. In the 1990s I was, appointed and served at the Bosnian Mission to the United Nations, and also, at the Bosnian embassy in Washington, DC during the 1990s.
So, I started off as a diplomat. Not trained in a diplomatic world but trained in the business world. And, after my tenure of service, after the genocide had come to an end, the war had come to an end, we had the peace agreement, and sort of, I would say, a hot peace for lack of a different terminology that still has many issues regarding the genocide that have not been resolved, I found myself working briefly for a humanitarian organization as a director of their operations, in different parts of the world, especially within the global context of the global South and Asia.
And, then I went into a career in my own business. And for a period of time, I was working in my own business, as well as working on issues related to the environment, climate justice, environmental justice, from the religious lens, specifically from the Islamic, religious lens, and to continue to do work in that area.
And, then I found myself, several years ago, working, or being asked to work, as the director of Interfaith and Governmental Relations for the Islamic Society of North America in Washington, DC. So, I sort of have my DC, credentials working on Capitol Hill, working with the State Department, the White House administration, and most importantly, other faith groups on various campaigns of mutual concern. Like, for example, the National Religious Campaign Against Torture was one of them that I was a part of and that the Islamic Society of
North America had helped to put together. There was another campaign known as
the Shoulder To Shoulder Campaign. We worked together with other faith groups
to address issues of xenophobia taking place within the context of America, and specifically, Islamophobia and anti-Muslim hate.
Most recently, I joined up again with, Justice For All. And I say ‘up again’ because Justice For All’s origins was also in the 1990s. Their first major campaign was under the organizational name of Bosnia Task Force USA, which I was a member of the Secretariat working in that organization at the same time as I was working, for Bosnia’s mission to the United Nations.
So, I started up again with Justice For All, and, we were working on human rights, religious minority human rights issues around the world, protecting religious minorities. They are the most vulnerable amongst the faith communities because they are in the position of minority, and it’s a minority that often belongs to a religious tradition or a spiritual path that is different than the majority nation in which those religious communities reside. There is also often an ethnic component to that as well. And we can maybe get into that if you want a little bit later, in terms of details. But very specifically, Justice For All’s campaign right now focuses on the issue of the persecution and the genocide against the weaker community in, in Xinjiang province, as it is called in Chinese or in East Turkestan, as the weaker community calls it.
The Rohingya community in Myanmar, Burma, an Indigenous community that has been also subjected to genocide. The long-standing issue of failure of the international community to honor self-determination, desires for the people of Kashmir, and also to the religious minorities in India, particularly the Muslim and Christian minorities who currently are experiencing various forms of discrimination.
We’ve also worked, and continue to work, in working to free children-prisoners who are in prison as a result of the Israeli military court system in Palestine, Israel. Often with no chance for, due legal process, and no opportunity for appeal of their sentences. And so that situation, of course, has gotten only worse and more challenging since, the events of October 7th and subsequent last 6 or 7 months.
So that’s sort of in a nutshell. The areas of current work that I’m involved in. And it is so critical, as we talk about issues of peace, to always know that there is a direct link to justice, and there is a direct link to freedom. And that these three components really have to be present, for there to be a total peace. Just like as a human being, we have to have both the spirit, the body, as well as the intellect, be free and able to work together. These three of these three aspects need to be present in order for a human to be fully human.
Anna: Wow, thank you so much. Such important work, and unfortunate that it’s much needed, you know, in today’s society. So, thank you so much for all you do.
And, yeah, I’d like to ask about, doing that kind of work, especially at the UN, must be very challenging. Especially perhaps working with or addressing oppressive governments, for example.
So, perhaps you could share a little bit about, what kind of advocacy efforts are being done at the UN? And, do you see a, I guess, any bright spots in such bleak situations?
Saffet: Thank you for that. Actually, the UN itself, was birthed, as you know, as a result, or coming out of, of two wars. And those were World War I and World War II. And here’s sort of an item that normally the people don’t like to mention. Both of those wars were not wars that involved the majority of folks, peoples, and nations from the global South. They were committed by the global North.
And that geopolitical divide, the global North and the global South is something that continues to, I would use the word ‘haunt’, relationships, and interactions between the family of nations. The idea of the UN, of course, and as mentioned in its preamble, is that it is to be a charter that is for “We, the peoples of the United Nations.”
Unfortunately, or by the nature of nations, ‘we the peoples’ voices are sometimes, or strangely represented in the nations which claim to represent us. So this is sort of an oxymoron. We, the peoples of the United Nations. But it has become actually we the nations of the United Nations. And then you speak about issues of national interest and national interests, don’t often, or don’t necessarily align with human interests, with the interests of the peoples of the world.
And that’s where the most important, I would say, component, of the UN system, but least recognized, in a real way, and least talked about. When we speak about the United Nations, immediately ‘peoples’ comes to people’s minds, as was the in my own personal life, the missions to the UN, the nations of the world, not the peoples of the world.
And if we took a look at the charter by its very language, the peoples of the world, that other component of the UN system is that which, and most critical component, is that which represents the peoples. And that’s the NGOs, civil society organizations. And many of those are faith-based organizations, are spiritually based organizations.
They are the ones that are with the people on the ground in their life experiences, in life situations, from birth to passing. They are the ones that provide sustenance and become, for example, in the case of, let’s say, a natural disaster and, of course, climate change and, the environmental degradation that is happening around the world as a result of greenhouse gas emissions, is something that is rapidly increasing the frequency and intensity of these so-called natural disasters.
And once again, you go into the break-up. The geopolitical North and the geopolitical South, the lion’s share of responsibility for global warming, which is affecting all nations, especially underdeveloped nations around the world, in the global South and frontline communities that are there along the coastlines and along the Island State Nations, is, originates from and the lion’s share of responsibility lies in the hands of the industrialized, so-called first world nations.
And so, you see that political divide there. But the NGOs are the eyes, the ears, the hands, the love, the care on the ground. And they’re the ones who, in a sense, represent the peoples of the world. And the United Nations is a place where they can articulate that to the nations of the world, who themselves are supposed to represent their own peoples, but often for various reasons, under various situations, especially as we move towards more participatory processes, move away from more participatory processes of governance.
And I’m not using the word democracy here in a general way. There’s a lot of challenges with democracy. But more of a participatory process in which people’s lives and that which impacts their lives are decided by them, not by others, even if those others claim to be part of their family or part of their nation. And moving towards a more authoritarian type of understanding of the world that is very much held hostage in many ways to a global economy that is dominated by multinational corporations whose stakeholders never include the people of the lands in which they operate.
For the most part, but rather include their responsibility to shareholders. To the bottom line. And the bottom line is one which always privileges profit over people. And so, NGOs, play a critical role in this space in which those policies, international policies, national policies which impact the lives of people, are mediated, are fulfilled, or not fulfilled, because of their efforts and their strength.
And so, in my own personal journey, going from representing a nation to the United Nations, and as part of the family of nations, and then working now within the context for quite a few years of the NGO family, and CSO, Civil Society Organizations, is a recognition of that important role.
So you said, is there a bright spot to the future? The various interlocking injustices of racial injustice, economic injustice, social injustice, religious injustice, these are all interlock – and climate injustice, which is sort of connecting all of them together, especially during this time of the climate emergency, these interlocking injustices are able to be confronted through the good work of the civil society organizations as we try to work together to make this world a more just, sustainable, world for all of us – peaceful, just, and sustainable world for all of us.
And so, I think, the bright light is the NGOs. The cautionary tale is NGOs participation often is, limited or is – full participation, full ability to work, is limited. While lip service is given, I mean, I can’t think of it almost any single UN meeting, when we say UN we’re talking about, of course, the UN administration, the Secretariat and the various departments and agencies of the UN, and the representatives of world nations, Missions to the UN that participate in those meetings, in which there is not at least lip service given to thank you very much, NGO and civil society organizations for the incredible work that you’re doing.
And then the meeting is over, the door is closed, and the people who will decide what’s going to be implemented next week, next month, next year in those areas where our civil society organizations work, are taking a decision. But we’re not in the room with them.
And then they come out, and they say, guess what we’ve decided. And then we sort of have a challenge of how do we take that decision and try to correct it if it’s wrong or try to find ways in which we can, somehow, optimize the benefit for the people whom we serve. The peoples of the world.
Because at the end of the day, as the preamble of the charter continues, we need to work. And it’s in this area, the nations of the world have been largely, I’m not particularly pointing to any particular one, but the nations of the world in general, have largely been failures. What’s that? To save succeeding generations from the scourge of war. There are more active wars taking place, large or small size, in the world today at this moment, than any time in our history. By multiples.
And so, if that’s the measure, the purpose of the UN is to serve, to save succeeding generations from the scourge of war, the track record is not good. The report card is passing, but not passing by too much.
Thank you.
Anna: Well, thank you for that. I appreciate your optimism, but also very realistic assessment of the situation and the limitation of the UN.
It really came to my mind that what you talked about, justice, in the beginning, is that we also need justice at the UN to amplify the voices of global South and civil society to really reflect we the people. So, thank you so much for, bringing that point then.
I’m just debating which direction to take it. But, I guess, what I want to ask now is all the things that you’re working on, I’m sure it would require for you to have long-term visions, perseverance, perhaps creativity, and not to feel, defeated by some of the things that happen, in the world every day.
So, I would like to ask, how does your faith inspire you to continue doing this work? And perhaps are there any specific teachings or principles that you particularly draw from?
Saffet: Yeah, thank you for that. I think having had the opportunity to do some work in, in the area of humanitarian relief, in different, very difficult situations around the world, some of them brought as a result of natural disasters, as they’re called.
One of the things, I don’t like, for example, using the words ‘natural disaster’ is it avoids this idea of accountability. You know, earthquakes happen. Yes, but earthquakes are also caused. Tsunamis happen, but tsunamis are also caused. And climate change and the realities of the science that is connected to it is very much clearly pointing the hand at human negative involvement in the natural world. We pushed the natural world too far.
And once again, when I say we, it’s a disproportionate we. The global North is largely responsible for the climate change. So those natural disasters are not quite natural. In a sense, they’re man-made also. And there has to be an accounting for that. But that’s a term that we sort of have.
And what I’ve seen through these challenges to human communities and human societies in this small area of work that I’ve been involved in has been the incredible resilience of human beings. The ability to have mercy and love during times of extreme tragedy. And kindness for fellow humans. And I think this is something that begins in childhood. Because Islam’s teachings say that all human beings have been infused with the divine spirit. And as such, there are not some humans that are better humans or lesser humans. We are all humans.
And Christians, my Christian brothers and sisters use the term ‘children of God’. And my Jewish brothers and sisters use the term ‘made in the image of God’. And various other religious traditions and spiritualities use other terms. But this idea of human beings being specially gifted, privileged, and therefore made responsible for carrying things out.
And so, there’s a general goodness that exists within us. I see this goodness, for example, play itself out. In November in the streets of Gaza, when a child, when the distribution of humanitarian aid, and I’m not going to get too much into the politics of it, but the distribution of humanitarian aid is not taking place, is being prevented from taking place.
But that [unintelligible], which was being distributed, one scene, to just give you an example about how ‘from the mouths of babes’ we have wisdom and sort of this, this inspiration.
In the middle of all that tragedy, of all the bombing, of all the killings, there’s a distribution of food. So, children came out to participate or to share in the food, literally starving, now having the opportunity to get some sort of sustenance. And one of the distribution points in Gaza as the children came out, and we’re talking children from the ages of maybe five, six years old, maybe to 10, 11, 12 years old. And in the recordings of those children coming out to get the food, they all came, and they began to eat.
And there was one small boy, I don’t know how old he is, my guess is maybe five years old, I don’t know. He came to the group that was taking some sort of food and eating, and there was none left. And I was watching the video, he began to tear.
Now I think about children. We have children. God blessed us with children. They tend to always, you know, this idea that they immediately take care of themselves, to feed themselves, to this need to feed themselves until they get educated and nurtured to the fact that we are part of not just a family, but a community. And all those others, maybe there was about 30 or 40 of them children that were there, both boys and girls, when they saw this little boy, he’s not their relative, as far as I know. Not all of their relatives. They turned around. They saw him crying. Each one. These are children that are starving and having something to eat, each one began to take something from their hands that they had food and to put it in his hand. To the point that he lifted up his shirt, his t-shirt that he had on, and it was becoming overfull, he couldn’t hold what was being given to him.
There was no adults. We were the troublemakers, the adults. There was no adult telling those children, this is what you have to do. That was purely coming from that place of mercy, of love, of goodness that I believe all human beings have.
So, I recall when I see, and we hear about the additional deaths and horrors that take place in different parts of the world as a result of natural disasters or man-made natural disasters and man-made disasters through war, these types of stories which are not fairy tales, but are real stories, I think inspire me.
And I think that those provide glimmers of hope, glimmers of recognition that even in the most difficult of – and we all have many of these stories in our communities, in the lands in which we work, the places in which we live. Those stories are the ones that sort of inspire us to move forward.
But I will once again emphasize, and I know I keep emphasizing, this, those stories are the stories of people, not governments, not nations. And if the nations listen to those people’s stories and acted upon them, not just showcasing them to for the sake of a PR stunt that lasts for one day and then the next day is forgotten about, but actually, take that example, I think we’d all be a much better place.
Anna: Wow, that’s a powerful story. And yes, it’s so important to believe in the goodness of people, and I wonder if maybe we should be turning the UN to the children and let their wisdom run the system because, as you said, it’s the adults that keep making the mistakes, not the children.
Saffet: Yeah, yeah, I just on that point. I know you’re also involved in doing incredible work with Soka Gakkai and some of the other work that you’re doing in nonviolence. And we’re all in the process, right, of getting ready for this Summit of the Future in the fall.
And so what it means for me practically, and I think maybe for yourself and others who work in the civil society NGO work is sort of figuring out which meetings you’re going to go to, which side events you’re going to organize, how are you going to make sure that all of the folks that you’re trying to bring to speak about a particular issue or to advocate for a particular area of concern, are going to get their accreditation so they can actually come in and participate in the meetings.
And as we’re talking about the title of it, “The Summit of the Future,” it comes to my mind, where are the voices of the children? They’re mediated by us? I don’t think they need to be mediated by us. I think we need to listen to the children. I don’t see anything in the accreditation packages. Maybe they’re there in which they allow someone who’s a five-year-old, a six-year-old, a seven-year-old to register to participate in the summit of the future.
There are youth reps, but the youth reps go up to age 35, you know, so it’s like, okay. You know, but what, who is the future? The children are the future. And I think we can learn a lot. We can learn a lot from them if we just listen. But if we don’t even have them in the places where we were deciding things or talking about things that are going to affect their future. I don’t know how successful, we’re not going to be as successful as we need to be in order to make this world a better place for all of us, but most importantly, for the future generations.
We’re here only for a short time. Very short time. And God decides when he will take us, back to him. But they’re going to be here much longer than we are as a general rule. And we need to find ways to listen to them.
Anna: Wow. That’s so true. Yes, it’s the Summit of the Future, and we have to let the future speak to us. And I think, you know, by also, folks, to the point of this structure of injustice that we perpetuate so unconsciously, you know, we adults speak for the children, mindlessly sometimes, with good intention, just as the Global North sometimes speaks for Global South or the governments are speak for their people, even though they might not really understand what they are really trying to represent. So, thank you so much for bringing that point.
You know, speaking about all the injustices in the world and especially, the horrible situation that’s happening in Gaza. I was thinking, you know, perhaps it is a difficult time to do the interfaith work. So, what is your advice, in terms of bringing people together, especially in the face of very complex challenges, like the ones that we are facing today?
Saffet: That’s the big question, right? I remember a poem that my late father taught us. It was sort of an English poem that was based on Islam’s teachings. And it was part of a medley that myself and my sisters used to sing, like, you can call it religious chanting and religious songs. But it was multi-language because I’m Bosnian, so, we had some Bosnian language in there. Arabic is the language of revelation of the Quran, which is the holy scripture of Muslims. And of course, English is my native tongue in a sense, growing up in America, English is my spoken language.
And part of the poem says, “Working together makes our hopes increase. To live in a world full of love and peace.” Working together. How do we work together? Well, the big projects, yes, but the little projects, very important. So how do faiths work with one another going forward? I think the climate movement and the environmental and climate justice movement gives us an insight into how this could be done.
Often, and I think wrongly so, not always wrongly so, but often wrongly so, religions and spiritual traditions are blamed for violence within the worlds. I think, in general, that’s not a truism. I think there are those who take religions hostage, and religious teachings hostage, and put on garbs and clothing upon themselves as being folks of religion when it is in their political and economic interest to do so. And they manipulate others to follow in their way.
So, religion is not so much a driver, but sort of a legitimizing of doing something wrong to one’s neighbor. But all religious teachings actually speak about the opposite of doing right by one’s neighbor. And one’s neighbor includes human and non-human. I mean, I when I’m sitting in my home in Jersey right now, I look outside, I have a neighbor behind me. You see this neighbor? It’s a tree. It’s a plant. It’s not a human, but it’s a neighbor.
And so what’s the lesson, or one lesson that I take away from the climate justice/ environmental justice movement, and seeing faiths working together in a real way to call attention to this climate emergency, which is facing all of us and which is changing our lives literally. It is spoken about as an existential threat.
Nuclear weapons are an existential threat, but climate change is an existential threat that is now rolling in fast motion. Nuclear weapons are waiting for someone, God save us, to press the button. The button has already been pressed with regard to climate change, and it is unraveling the world, which we know, in ways which we have yet to understand and fully appreciate, but it’s happening. We can sense it.
And what happened? The peoples of different faiths of the world and spiritual traditions, the peoples of the world once again, came together and looked at each other with eyes that said, I’m from one faith, you’re from another faith, but this land that we walk upon, this earth that we are a part of, is something that both of our religious structures, edifices, institutions, is standing on.
And we in our own residences, in our own homes, are standing on that very same Earth. And that Earth is falling apart literally. That Earth is no longer being a place of safety, of security, of nourishment, but a place of danger for all of us. And we have to work to fight this danger together. This is something that historically religious community, spiritual communities did not face.
We didn’t face environmental concerns as we do now. The natural world sort of did its thing, but now the natural world is being impacted directly, and the underlying systems are being altered by what human beings are doing. And I think that caused us to dig deep within our religious traditions and say, what does our religious teachings give us in terms of abilities to deal with this crisis that we have? It’s a crisis which we didn’t face before, but it’s a crisis which we are all facing.
And so, I think that understanding caused us to come together. So, for example, the most important international treaties that has been signed by the nations of the world in terms of largest number of nations signing on to it, was the Paris Agreement 2015.
The Paris Agreement was preceded six months, eight months, by the release of various declarations on climate change from religious perspectives, from different religious and faith communities, and spiritual paths from around the world. What does our religion say about this issue? The common beginning point of all of those declarations was the Earth is in trouble, the Earth is broken, and we, if we do not fix it, we will be broken as well, and we need to fix it.
But the untold story of those declarations is that each of us I was involved with the Islamic Declaration on Global Climate Change, which was put together by Muslim scholars in different parts of the world, as part of the wonderful team that helped to bring that together, as a consultant. And, we looked I can tell you in the process of developing the declaration, we looked, we read, we studied what the Pope had to say in Laudato si’, what the Buddhist community had to say, what the Hindu community had to say, what the Jewish community had to say, and other communities on this issue. To help us to understand also and maybe give it a deeper meaning and understanding to the way in which our religious tradition speaks to these issues.
And how do we articulate that in a modern, current, situation, in the modern current situation in which we are facing? And then putting our hands together and physically walking on the streets of Paris, physically walking on the streets of New York City, of Washington, DC, as part of the People’s, Climate Movement.
And coming together across traditions, arm in arm, hand in hand, and saying this is something that we don’t want for any of our futures. Working together makes our hopes increase, to live in a world full of love and peace. At the very local level. It means, for example, community gardens, putting our hands in the ground together, planting something of which we will equally share of its fruit.
And not just ours as religious leaders, but us as members of families, as members of communities. This action and that tree that planting, that garden, that action against fossil fuel exploration, all of those things will cause us to come together in ways I think we haven’t seen in the past.
And so, I’m hopeful. Say, how do we dialogue? We need to get past the monologues. We need to get past the theological doctrines. And we need to talk about how my religion teaches me to make this spot of land that I live upon, safe and blessed. And how your religion teaches you, or faith tradition, or spirituality, to do the same.
And then recognizing as I’m looking to the ground where my feet are standing, you’re standing on the same ground that I’m standing on, and if I do something here, it’s going to affect you there. And if you do something there, it’s going to affect me here. So, we better do it together. Because at the end of the day, if it’s not going to be a source of sustenance, of peace, of tranquility, of security, for us, it’s not going to be a source of peace, nourishing security for the other.
And so, I think that’s something that we can say. The interfaith dialog for the longest time, and I’ve been involved in this for quite a few years as a grandpa, now, has often been what I call the Kumbaya moments. We come, and we hold each other’s hands, and we say thank God for the blessings we have. And then we say goodbye. See you next year. And one year later, we come again together and hold each other’s hands. Well, next year might not come. The existential threat is real.
So, we need to get beyond the Kumbaya moments. And in the academic circles and traditional religious dialogs, we talk about what my religion teaches, what’s right about my religion often, and even if I might not articulate it, I’m thinking about it. What’s wrong about your religion? But we have to think about what’s right for all of us, for the Earth in which we live.
Each of our religious traditions and spirituality is very rich with teachings and understandings of the way of being in the world in a harmonious way, with each other and with the natural world. We just need to implement it.
And so, I think dialogs between religious communities are moving in that direction. For what I stand for, and what you stand for, is what you stand on. And that’s the same place that I’m standing on, Mother Earth.
Anna: Wow. That’s, it’s been such an uplifting and wonderful conversation, to listen to you and such a great food for thought, nourishment for my soul. I just really want to thank you. I really feel you embody this, you know, thinking of your actions really speak louder than your words. You know, I really feel you’re walking the talk. So, thank you so much for sharing your experience, your wisdom. And –
Saffet: It’s been wonderful to be with you. And I’m really, appreciate the incredible work that you’ve done, especially with Soka Gakkai, and the nonviolent work that you’re doing. It’s so important.
And then I’ll just take a page. We don’t need to quote European philosophers. Let’s just use an African word. That African word went a long way. I believe it’s a Swahili word. In South Africa and other parts of the world, to bring people of different races together, to go against systems that were unjust. And it was ‘ubuntu’. Ubuntu. I am who I am because we are who we are. I am who I am because we are who we are. We are interconnected.
And I think that idea and that concept, it’s called the United Nations, but it’s not the United Nations. It’s the Disunited Nations. And NGOs and civil society organizations don’t have all the answers, but I think we have a good sense. Because we work together in real ways with real people on the ground in so many different levels in so many different situations. We have a real sense of where it needs to go.
And so, I’m hopeful that together we can begin to cause another types of Paris Agreements to come into existence and to find ways to enforce them in which there is this mutual accounting, mutual respect, and mutual care that is so much needed if we’re going to have a just, safe, sustainable, and peaceful future.
Anna: Thank you so much.
Saffet: Thank you. God bless you. And we look forward to seeing each other in New York sometime at the UN.